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@ §2: Lawyers say no evidence tying Dutchman to Halabja by jouna on 10.12.2005 [04:31 ]

LINK: today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-12-09T151439Z_01_DIT954859_RTRUKOC_0_US-WARCRIMES-IRAQ-ANRAAT.xml&archived=False QUOTE: “Prosecutors have said Van Anraat delivered more than 1,000 tonnes of thiodiglycol — an industrial chemical which can be used to make mustard gas but also has civilian uses — to Iraq and more than 800 tonnes ended up on the battlefield.”

zyklon B & hydrogen cyanide by hellsbells on 10.12.2005 [08:14 ]

As far as I know, zyklon B is comprised of (a) an absorbant substance, such as plaster-of-paris, and (b) hydrogen cyanide gas adsorbed onto the plaster-of-paris. Thus the zyklon B can be put into airtight cans, making more robust gas cylinders unnecessary. To regenerate the hydrogen cyanide gas, the pellets were shaken out from the can, and the gas evaporated slowly. To make it evaporate more quickly, the pellets needed to be raised to 27deg Celsius. If a building was to be fumigated, it needed to have windows & doors covered, and allowed to stand for several days. Needless to say, the horror story of 'nazi gas chambers' using zyklon B to kill people is quite fictitious. Yes, zyklon B was an effective bug-killer in the days before DDT. Yes, there were problems with bugs: louse-borne typhus was a major killer in the concentration camps. Yes, clothes & bedding were fumigated with zyklon B. No, people were not poisoned with zyklon B. So zyklon B was a (human) life-preserving substance — not a (human) killer. As for the Halabja tragedy, it appears to have been 'collateral damage' (as the yankees love to say) of the Iran-Iraq War twenty years ago. There are opinions that the death-dealing gas was Iranian, not Iraqi. Something went wrong, and civilians were killed. That's one of the major reasons why gas warfare is so condemned: it is too open to unexpected changes in wind & weather and gets the wrong target. Needless to say, the show trial (against President Saddam Hussein & his colleagues) is not interested in truth & justice. It's all part of the political parade for the uninformed & misinformed masses of the U.S.A., UK, Australia and other countries complicit in the criminal invasion & destruction of Iraq.

@ hellsbells (& all others) by jouna on 11.12.2005 [05:03 ]

hellsbells is absolutely right on Z-B vs. h. cyanide. (google cyanide and or wikipedia for this as I did). I had my reason to use Zyklon-B here bit unaccurately, I’ll reveal why if Stephen Pelletière answers to this and the discussion continues :) @ picard-fortune: If you read the intro to this article you’ve already find out why I was asking the e-mail address of Mr. Pelletière. As I couldn’t find it, published this as an open letter. - Murtha 17.11.2005 He also took issue with one of the White House’s claims—that foreign fighters were playing the major role in the insurgency. Murtha said that American soldiers “haven’t captured any in this latest activity”—the continuing battle in western Anbar province, near the border with Syria. “So this idea that they’re coming in from outside, we still think there’s only seven per cent.”

To §6,2): On Israel in Kurdish area in 2005 by jouna on 11.12.2005 [05:26 ]

cf.: Israelis training Kurds in northern Iraq - report LINK: www.iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/72001 (with updates 1-2-3 added by jouna) (Not proving that the Israeli were there also in 1988, but showing that this is possible now, why not earlier?) @ ALL: I’ve no opinion on whether the Germans actually gassed jews with the Zyklon-B in WW2 or not, I just know the standard story that they did, but busy with the war going on now not having time to check this out myself. BTW: My murtha-comment above is there just because of accident, so do not bother finding any explanation for it (needed to change font, which was fastest done by dropping it there, where I also forgot it, sorry).

To §2: Defence asks Dutch court to dismiss Iraqi case by jouna on 11.12.2005 [05:36 ]

LINK: www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=38530&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs @ All: the story of Halabja, given by hellsbells above goes all the way back to the U.S. intelligence (both CIA and DIA), blaming solely the Iranians. What I’ve been wondering, is this really so simple, as the job of CIA and DIA is produce lies. As the cyanide gas is delivered by air bombing, it is also possible that the bombarders of the gas in were actually U.S. or Israeli planes. Even if not so, it’s highly likely that the U.S. helped Iranians in the attack, thus making themselves guilty of the very same crime, killing the Kurds at Halabja, of which they now accuse Saddam Hussein.

jouna... by Mike-Malaysia on 12.12.2005 [03:32 ]

initial query: Your claim that the Iraqis would have used cyanide gas would not make sense anyway, just because of the following points: - did you mean the Iranians instead of Iraqis ?

I ask that becasue by Mike-Malaysia on 12.12.2005 [03:49 ]

Pelletière says (certainly in the NY lecture) that the Iranians 'used' the blood agent (which you identify as hydrogen cyanide). He also says the Iraqi's has mustard gas. Therefore (and I think he says this directly) it was the Iranians that are responsible. It looks like you've made a cut and paste error or something (or I'm failing to understand the situation) Anyway... The victims of Halabja could be tested for mustard gas (or hydrogen cyanide) by its toxilogical effect and its chemical residues. (just like the victims of Fallujah canbe tested for white phosphorous). Refs: Reference page on mustad gas... a) www.bristol.ac.uk/Depts/Chemistry/MOTM/mustard/mustard.htm b) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas Reference page on toxic effects of hydrogen cyanide c) www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg8.html d) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide

Aaaagh... by Mike-Malaysia on 12.12.2005 [03:54 ]

I see now.. Sorry. I see what you are saying now. You're putting forward his rebuttal of the official thing. Apologies... I wasn't reading it carefully enough.

jouna... by Mike-Malaysia on 12.12.2005 [04:03 ]

(still sorry)... I never knew of Jalal Talabani's history. Now that you expose it, a lot of things have fallen into place. Check out these articles... 100 bodies plucked from Tigris river iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/47194 Bodies of 50 hostages found in Iraq www.iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/47418 Discovery of bodies fuels sectarian tension www.iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/47418 Becasue of Xuma's antics, my hypothesis and analysis of these dead bodies slaughter is not present, but I recall it highlights some contradictions in Talabani's statements. I think you can ask a mod to restore my post from the archives. You may also notice that there this event was one in which it appears that the purpose of the event is to trigger the civil war, and we all know who benefits from that.!!! It seems like Talabani is up to his old tricks!!!

jouna by Mike-Malaysia on 12.12.2005 [05:10 ]

Perhaps one needs to start investigating BBC journalist Mark Urban. If memory serves correct he was there with the scoop and I believe, subsequently he has been a main accucer of Iraq. Why was he there? If he arrives after the even, how did he know about it to begin with, How come he got access. Humm.... 1) Quote: Newsnight tonight gave us a brief glimpse of the Iranian Prime minister explaining the current hostility to Israel. He said: Israel has for decades ignored with impunity the many UN resolutions against its actions; Israel has built an obscene wall to keep out Palestinians. All this was totally ignored by Paxman and reporter Mark Urban. (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4311676.stm) 2) Quote: ''>now that Iraq has the Oil for Food money they spend > miserably little of it of infant feeding programmes; Iraq has spent > huge amounts on Saddam's palaces and gold rolexes'' From Mark Urban e-mail Re: Iraq oil for food (see the link for rebuttal of Urbans wild remarks www.casi.org.uk/discuss/1999/msg00589.html) 3) Urban also appears to have made false calims __aparently 4 times!! (which of course support the Bush bLiar murderous deception) that Iraq kicked out the weapons inspectors... www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2001/msg00214.html 4) "It is indeed the first real evidence that President Bush's grand design of toppling a dictator and forcing a democracy into the heart of the Middle East could work." (Urban, Newsnight, BBC2, April 12, 2005) (www.medialens.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1082) - pass me the sick bag. news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/16/newsid_4304000/ 4304853.stm Strangely, I cant find reference to Urban and the halabja attack. Urban is'nt even listen in the BBC press office biographies (whereas much 'lesser' BBC employees are) Read BBC's retrospective report on Halabja... news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/16/ newsid_4304000/4304853.stm It seems to be to deliberate mussy the waters as it mentiones a range of chemical weapons: mustard gas, the nerve agents sarin, tabun and VX and possibly cyanide. So its harder to hold anyone (and therefore the actual perpertrator!) to account. I may be wrong about Urban being the scoop journalist as I'm going from a hazy memory of it at the time. If he was the scoop journalist, then either he's part of the plan or an innocent journalist grabbing the scoop to make a name for himself. If he is part of the plan - and his brainwashed unquestioning servitutde the the Bush bLiar lies certainly indicate this is a real possibility.

Another point that stick out by Mike-Malaysia on 12.12.2005 [05:21 ]

The BBC "on this day" report identifies the planes used. How many of the population know what each plane looks like? To the untrained eye, a mirage could look very much like any other fighter. And details of the number of sorties and aircraft involved in the bombing are also mentioned. If I was a civillian I wouldn't have a clue which sortie was which, when one began and when one ended, in addition to which plane was which. I dont like to do this but heregoes... Saddam seems to be brutial (but only becasue the subverted western press and corrupt anti-saddam people say so), and as such, may well have used these weapons. After all, the US sold them to him, and what was the point og just sitting on them? However I dont think the evidence of the case is very flimbsy and highly biased. I dont think Iran would have dont it (if reports that Iranian troops were found gassed). The US/so called Shitsrayhell? Maybe. Given what I have learned about US/so called Shitsrayhell I would put them as chief culprits, followed by Saddam, followoed by Iran. The problem is the lack of direct incriminating evidence. The Chemical analysis to revel the exact toxin used would be of great help, otherwise its hard to conclusively either way.

@ Mike-Malaysia: by jouna on 12.12.2005 [10:54 ]

Yes, you got it absolutely right. I’m implying that 1) The U.S. was somehow involved in zyklonBing the Iranians (perhaps by Mossad, perhaps by bombing the Kurds themselves) and blames for this both (a) Saddam Hussein (in the now ongoing trial) (b) the Iranians, claiming them responsible for the cyanide, thus creating (c) a win-win-situation (from their point of view). I’ve read my Pelletiere, and what made me very dubious was that (d) he bluntly says it was the Iranians – but how the hell they know it. You can not jump to that right from the certainly true fact that it was not the Iraqis. (e) The aerial bombing necessary for spreading the ZyklonB gas possibilitates that a lot of other govts than the Iranians could have done it. Or perhaps they did it, but with some help from the US, which was helping them at the time against, a development highlighted as the Iran-Contra scandal. Perhaps there was more ‘help’ than revealed by the scandal, namely the US “help” here too. Mike, I do hope you see this, since at the moment I’m very busy, having several big projects going on and unable to investigate this further just at the moment. I WOULD HIGHLY APPRECIATE, IF YOU COULD LOOK DEEPER INTO THIS MATTER IF YOU GOT TIME FOR IT. (I’LL BE MONITORING THIS ARTICLE LATER ON, SO IF YOU’RE IN, COPY THAT RIGHT BELOW THIS COMMENT) With Warm Regards, jouna

jouna by Mike-Malaysia on 12.12.2005 [11:53 ]

I remember somehow reading a "report of the (US classified) report" that said the Iranians were to blame, when I did a brief research into into this horrendous affair it some time ago. I also sent out e-mails to others that had made their own investigations into it. The result was ALWAYS of the opinion that it was Iran or Iraq. Nobody else.However I never asked those people for their sources and so they could all have been feeding off the same bit of information, be it real or fabricated. Unfortunately I never saved the records of my past investigation. I will however keep an eye out and let you know what I find. ea mail is probably the best forum for any further info. please send a mail to peter9991uk at yahoo dotttt co dotttt uk. jouna. Some advice. You seem to be working flat out in researching this viscious war against iraq and that is good. However make sure you dont neglect other aspects of your life also, like if your research is eating into your 'job time' or if you have any family considerations and so forth. I say this as I have got off balance a few times myself with this Iraqwar atrocity.

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